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Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about MLB’s long-shot attempt to recoup COVID-related losses from its insurance providers, Tomoyuki Sugano getting posted, and why the Phillies’ rebuild has stalled, then (36:45) talk to Sean Gibson, the great-grandson of Hall of Famer and Negro Leagues great Josh Gibson and the executive director of the Josh Gibson Foundation, about his campaign to get MLB’s MVP award renamed after Gibson, how he learned about his great-grandfather’s life, why he decided to devote himself to honoring the legacy of his great-grandfather and the Negro Leagues, common misconceptions about Gibson, Gibson’s skill as a catcher, what-ifs about Gibson’s career, efforts to collect Negro Leagues stats, the centennial of the Negro Leagues, the Gibson Foundation’s programs, and more.


  • Interview with Sean Gibson
  • Family history and learning about Josh Gibson while growing up
  • Creation and mission of the Josh Gibson Foundation
  • Gibson's statistical record and recognizing Negro Leagues statistics
  • Campaigning for renaming of the MVP award
  • Misconceptions about Gibson as a player and person
  • Gibson's posthumous election into the Hall of Fame
  • What-ifs from Gibson's career and life
  • Gibson's skill as a catcher
  • Centennial of the Negro Leagues and activities of the Gibson Foundation
  • Selling of statues from PNC Park
  • Death of Dick Allen


Dan Bern, "Josh Gibson"


  • MLB filed a lawsuit with insurance providers to recoup losses due to COVID-19. Trying to get around language in their policy, MLB claims that COVID-19 has caused physical damage to the air and property at the facilities.
  • Episode 1624 follow-up: Tomoyuki Sugano was posted and is now able to sign with MLB teams.
  • Zach Wheeler trade rumors and why the Phillies' rebuild has stalled.
  • Former commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis's name has been stripped from the MLB MVP award due to his opposition to integration. Guest Sean Gibson is leading an effort to name the award after Josh Gibson.


  • Meg refers to MLB's suit as "Hey maybe this'll work" litigation. She also finds it disingenuous for the MLB to claim on the one hand that you've made it safe to play games, while at the same time claiming that the virus's damage is physical and enduring in order to get an insurance payout.
  • Other similar attempts to get around the pandemic exception by reframing the issue as damage to property have largely failed. Former attorney Craig Calcaterra evaluates the situation in his article linked below.
  • Sean says that he grew up hearing about "Big Josh" (Josh Gibson) and "Little Josh" (Josh Gibson Jr.) from family, but it wasn't until his early teens that he realized the impact and role his great-grandfather had.
  • Sean contests some of the depiction of Gibson, particularly the amount he drank, in Soul of the Game (discussed in Episode 1559). He notes that by all accounts Gibson was just a social drinker.